Simon Sane - 14:39
who was it who was telling me about how everyone gets several pairs of kidneys that then turn into other organs
ovaries or whatnot

Ben - 14:39
I was.
I flagged that as suspect, though.
The person who told me about it was pretty drunk at the time, and also is gullible.

Simon Sane - 14:41

reading this julian jaynes book, i'm increasingly thinking there might be some merit to the idea that there's a second consciousness in my head
or an extra half of one or something
the way organisms evolve new organs and structures and such, whether in the brain or in the body, is all about making copies of things, changing one or both of the copies to be different, and then putting them together in some weird way

Simon Sane - 14:51

Nguyễn is the most common Vietnamese family name. Outside of Vietnam, the surname is commonly rendered without diacritics as Nguyen. Vietnamese pronunciation is northern [ŋʷǐˀən] ( listen) and southern [ŋʷĩəŋ] ( listen); in English it is commonly /ˈwɪn/ "win".[1]
By some estimates, forty percent of Vietnamese people have this surname.[2][3][4]
how on earth do you misspell "win" "nguyen"

Ben - 14:53
It isn't a misspelling.

Simon Sane - 14:53
tell it to the judge!

barry bletunick - 14:53


Simon Sane - 14:55


barry bletunick - 14:55
at one point i was working on 3 games at the same time

Simon Sane - 14:55
is that inspired by grim and billy

i oinly work on plorg
the picture typewriter with no pictures


barry bletunick - 14:58
i don't think i do

Simon Sane - 14:58


this isn't what plorg looks like
well, it might be
i don't know what it looks like

Ben - 14:59
Plorg looks like that, but without the images.

Simon Sane - 14:59
do triangles count as pictures? no, right, because, the y're in unicode?

Ben - 14:59
Plus triangles.

Simon Sane - 15:00
right

Scribbit - 15:00
hm, maybe this lightbox for gimp is just trickier than I realized

Ben - 15:00
It's basically a captcha, but for children.

Simon Sane - 15:00


Scribbit - 15:00
I have no idea how it's doing this color export, but when drawing the frames it has the color layers over the lines, but then when exported it re-arranges it to be proper

Simon Sane - 15:00
it's probably not a captcha
but it will be for children
it will have no words, either
no words or pictures
it will have sound effects, though, but just little generic ones like "ding" or "beep" or "zzt"

Scribbit - 15:03
boop

Ben - 15:03
boing
creeeeak

Simon Sane - 15:03





yeah, those kind
the sounds will be less abstract than the visuals
and the movement of things will be less abstract than their static forms, which will probably just be like, flat colored triangles, maybe with borders
at most probably simple 3D shapes like rods and spheres and cones and tubes and discs
slats and hoops and twinks and chips


Ben - 15:06
Sharps and flats.

Simon Sane - 15:07
those aren't shapes ben

Ben - 15:07
The development of Gumby stemmed from the philosophy that Art used in his film, Gumbasia—the idea that everything in life is based on geometric forms. Gumby and Pokey arose from that idea. They are combinations of simple forms. They are rectangles and spheres.

Scribbit - 15:12
wow, this much simpler animation oriented plugin for gimp is unsurprisingly much better suited for animation than GAP(gimp animation plugin)
it's still un-intuitive and has MASSIVE ERRORS if the layers are named incorrectly though
also, it only exports as .tif
which is fucking annoying
.tif is like the worst goddamn image format ever

Simon Sane - 15:13
lem chaney jr: man, nothing annoys me.. well, more things annoy me than people mistaking stop motion animation for claymation
Geometric Solid: but it's practically the same thing
Geometric Solid: only one is patented by will vinton
lem chaney jr: it is not! claymation is a trademark of the wil ye s
lem chaney jr: and his creations are all literally disgusting...
Geometric Solid: remember rex and herb?
Geometric Solid: the dinosaurs who hosted the claymation christmas special?
lem chaney jr: no, thankfully
Geometric Solid: rex was a well-spoken but stuffy t-rex
Geometric Solid: herb was a jovial...... other dinosaur....
Geometric Solid: who was constantly eating and being unprofessional
Geometric Solid: at the end, rex ate herb, and then belched out his bones to spell MERRY CHRISTMAS

Ben - 15:14
"We put a little bump of wisdom on his head to give him the bump of wisdom that the Buddhists have. The only difference is that they have it over the center of their head, and Gumby’s is over to the side."

Simon Sane - 15:14
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqqg6l_zrqw

Scribbit - 15:14
what's the best way to batch convert .tif to .png? Irfanview???

Simon Sane - 15:15
here's the bit where the bump of wisdom attempts to murder prickle
yeah

barry bletunick - 15:22
i was thinking of making a simple to the core dating game in twine.. something creepy
using nothing but public domain images
but i dunno, i've got too many projects
i've got 3 zzt files i'm working on pseudosimultaneously
and some klik n play/tgf/mmf2.5 stuff
man, i'm glad i didn't get into gamemaker
those licenses are EXPENSIVE
and they don't have a flash exporter

Simon Sane - 15:24

plorg will be dhtml

barry bletunick - 15:24
by the by matt, have you heard from your older siblings?
i think i have that gold-plated one on steam, which i can use now. one of the games makes me turn off my other monitors or just shows a black screen

Simon Sane - 15:34
 Another fragment describes the true beginning of personal responsibility, where he warns his fellow Athenians not to blame the gods for their misfortunes, but themselves. How contrary to the mind of the Iliad! And then adds,

    Each one of you walks with the steps of a fox; the noos of all of you is chaunos [porous, spongy, or loose-grained as in wood]: for you look to a man's tongue and rapidly shifting speech, and never to the deed he does. (Fragment 10).

Not Achilles nor artful Odysseus nor even foolish Perses (or his brother) could have 'understood' this admonition. Consciousness and morality are a single development. For without gods, morality based on a consciousness of the consequences of action must tell men what to do. The dike or justice of the Works and Days is developed even further in Solon. It is now moral right that must be fitted together with might in government (Fragment 36) and which is the basis of law and lawful action.

Sometimes attributed to Solon are certain other injunctions, such as his exhortation to "moderation in all things." But more germane to the present topic is the famous "Know thyself," which is often ascribed to him but may have come from one of his contemporaries. This again was something inconceivable to the Homeric heroes. How can one know oneself? By initiating by oneself memories of one's actions and feelings and looking at them together with an analog 'I', conceptualizing them, sorting them out into characteristics, and narratizing so as to know what one is likely to do. One must 'see' 'oneself' as in an imaginary 'space,' indeed what we were calling autoscopic illusions back in an early chapter.
With Solon, partly because he was the political leader of his time, the operator of consciousness is firmly established in Greece. He has a mind-space called a noos in which an analog of himself can narratize out what is dike or right for his people to do. Once established, once a man can 'know himself,' as Solon advised, can place 'times' together in the side-by-sideness of mind-space, can 'see' into himself and his world with the 'eye' of his noos, the divine voices are unnecessary, at least to everyday life. They have been pushed aside into special places called temples or special persons called oracles. And that the new unitary nous (as it came to be spelled), absorbing the functions of the other hypostases, was successful is attested by all the literature that followed, as well as the reorganization of behavior and society.

But we are somewhat ahead of our story. For there is another development in this important sixth century B.C. , and one which is a huge complication for the future. It is an old term, psyche, used in an unpredictably new way. In time it comes to parallel and then to become interchangeable with nous, while at the same time it engenders that consciousness of consciousness which was held up as false at the beginning of Book I. Moreover, I shall suggest that this new concept is an almost artifactual result of a meeting between Greek and Egyptian cultures.

THE INVENTION OF THE SOUL
i don't see where watkins gets off saying this isn't interesting, it's maybe the most interesting book i've ever read

Scribbit - 15:40
it doesn't seem provable

Simon Sane - 15:53
it is provable! all we have to do is clone us up some neandrathals or ancient greeks or whatever
which we COULD do already, but they won't because of "ethics"

Scribbit - 15:53
and then force them to live in a simulated wilderness
we have feral children, they're kind of like neanderthals

Simon Sane - 15:54
nah, that's not necessary, i think jaynes is wrong about consciousness being primarily cultural, it's got to be genetic

Scribbit - 15:54
jack masters: eugenics king for a new centry

Ben - 15:54
That's kind of his whole thing!

Scribbit - 15:54
century
poor spellers will be the first to go!!!
when does jaynes say consciousness actually appeared though?

Simon Sane - 15:56
http://www.angryflower.com/partyf.gif
different times different places

Ben - 15:56
Another time, another... place.

Simon Sane - 15:56
like, the inca were pre-conscious, which is why they were super easy to conquer

Scribbit - 15:57
no wheels
no beasts of burden!
plenty of gold though

Simon Sane - 15:58
they essentially didn't grasp treachery, they just did what the gods commanded all day

Ben - 15:58
But gods are treacherous.

Simon Sane - 15:58
you could literally stand behind a statue of a god and tell them to do the macarana and they would, it says here

Ben - 15:58
Like the Ilwrath.

Scribbit - 15:59
I'd have to see some pretty compelling evidence to believe that...
link me to julian jayne's youtube account

Simon Sane - 16:00

he has pretty compelling evidence, but it's a ton of small to medium-sized things rather than one big thing
that's why he wrote a book instead of a paper
well, i assume that's why
maybe he just wanted to be popular, but if so he should've titled his book BRAIN SHARK TORNADO and had crazy picture of the earth crossed with an eyeball or something on the cover
instead of titling it "thing that's literally longer than this sentence making fun of how long it is" and a picture of nothing
for all his "brains" and "consciousness", julian jaynes wasn't much of a salesman
he seemed to naively think people would listen to well-reasoned, eloquently expressed arguments, fool that he was!
he need more sstreet smart s s
he tried to make his groundbreaking ideas palatable by presenting them in a scholarly framework, but that's no good! these days you have to offend people in order to get their attention

Scribbit - 16:19
no ebook available, are you transcribing those passages by hand?
ok, amazon had it but google play didn't

Simon Sane - 16:24
i'm copying them from kindle cloud reader using a cheaty javascript bookmarklet
');var%20l=$('Copy');$("#kindle_menu_border",c).append(f).append(l);$("#ACRExtensions_copyB",c).click(function(n){a.prompt("Selection:",k)});return%20i};alert("ACRExtensions%20is%20now%20active.")}else{alert("ACRExtensions%20is%20already%20active.")}}else{alert("Error:%20ACRExtensions%20is%20not%20active.%20Te%20Amazon%20Cloud%20Reader%20window%20could%20not%20be%20found.")}})()">Kindlethfgh
whoops
javascript:(function(){var%20a=null;var%20c=null;if(typeof%20window.KindleReaderContextMenu!=="undefined"){a=window}else{if(window.length){for(var%20d=0;d<window.length;d++){if(typeof%20window[d].KindleReaderContextMenu!=="undefined"){a=window[d];break}}}}if(typeof%20a==="object"){var%20b=a.KindleReaderContextMenu;if(typeof%20b.ACRExtensions==="undefined"){b.ACRExtensions=true;var%20e=b.show;b.show=function(){var%20i=e.apply(b,arguments);if(typeof(arguments[3])!=="undefined"&&typeof(arguments[3]["start"])!=="undefined"){var%20g=arguments[3].start;var%20h=arguments[3].end;var%20m={};c=$("iframe",document).first().contents();$("iframe",c).each(function(p,o){for(var%20n=g;n<=h;n++){$("#"+n,$(o).contents()).each(function(q,r){m[n]=$(r).text()})}});var%20k="";for(var%20j%20in%20m){k+="%20"+m[j]}}$("#ACRExtensions_copyB_sep",c).remove();$("#ACRExtensions_copyB",c).remove();var%20f=$('<div%20id="ACRExtensions_copyB_sep"%20class="kindle_menu_separator"></div>');var%20l=$('<div%20id="ACRExtensions_copyB"%20class="kindle_menu_button%20button_enabled%20ui-corner-left">Copy</div>');$("#kindle_menu_border",c).append(f).append(l);$("#ACRExtensions_copyB",c).click(function(n){a.prompt("Selection:",k)});return%20i};alert("ACRExtensions%20is%20now%20active.")}else{alert("ACRExtensions%20is%20already%20active.")}}else{alert("Error:%20ACRExtensions%20is%20not%20active.%20Te%20Amazon%20Cloud%20Reader%20window%20could%20not%20be%20found.")}})()
there you go
you have to click it as soon as you open a book, and then when you highlight passages you'll get a copy button
in addition to the two usual, useless buttons

Scribbit - 16:25
haw

Simon Sane - 16:39

there, bam
you're welcome, julian jaynes

Simon Sane - 16:47
you know who i'd probably like a lot better than a perfect copy of myself?
a copy of myself with no sense of humor
but would he like me?

not being wacky or sarcastic or whimsical or kooky is very hard for me to do

Ben - 17:22
It's tricky.

Simon Sane - 17:22
even that list itself got a little longer than it would've if i'd been keeping the impulse in check properly
it's even harder to avoid being amused by things
the thing about amusement is that being amusing makes you a performer and being amused makes you an audience and neither role really grounds you into reality like a character into a story

Ben - 17:26
Not laughing or joking was a good podcast request.

Simon Sane - 17:26
and without that grounding, it's hard to really care about what you do with your life
or even pay attention to it

Scribbit - 17:28
GET MOTIVATED

Simon Sane - 17:28
that's an azumanga daioh reference

Scribbit - 17:29
yes

Simon Sane - 17:30
it's a decent joke, actually, although you probably didn't intend it to be, because it's exactly that sort of free-associative interaction that makes us unempathazable to ourselves

Ben - 17:31
Are we empathizable to others?

Simon Sane - 17:32
i think it hurts that too, but i don't think it's as big a problem
the only judgement i really care about is my own
actually it's not just amusement which has the problem, it's entertainment in general
though not all to an equal degree or anything
i've attempted to be completely serious for a day or two on more than one occasion and quickly failed, but i don't remember why, specifically
i'm guessing it comes down to a failure of attention

Simon Sane - 17:41
and it'd be easy to point the finger at cross-contextual thinking there, which is often involved in humor, but the real problem is just seeing somebody say something and having an impulse to say something related to that thing without regard to the larger context of the conversation

Simon Sane - 17:46
there's a line from a cat and girl strip about ironic t-shirts which often runs through my head, "These images don't carry on a dialogue with the world."

Simon Sane - 06:49
it really depends on the specifics of the implementation, i think
i could easily imagine it being effective enough at teaching people mindfulness or vocabulary or something to unintentionally offset the harm it did on purpose
or, conversely, accidentally do something evil that overshadowed the products of my best intentions
it's an evil project not in its aims, which are nebulous and ambivalent, but in its hubris
finding the sorcerer's hat and thinking "somebody's going to use it sooner or later, better that it be me"